There have been myths about what happens at gun shows. These myths stem anywhere from anti-gun activists to people who honestly don’t know the law. In truth, several of the sources for these gun show myths can be traced back to distorted facts.
To help credit the authenticity of this article, all sources will be linked. Please note, it’s been made a point to use sources that are government agencies or that may or may not be biased towards strong gun control. Also J.S.T. Andrews is not an attorney, nor should this be taken as legal advice.
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Myth: Anyone can Purchase a Firearm at a Gun Show
Fact: False. Licensed dealers are required to run a background check on every gun purchase. This even applies to those who are trading-in a firearm for another.
Source: ATF – Brady Law
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Myth: Most Guns Used in Crimes are Purchased from Gun Shows
Fact: False. According to the Washington Post, a staggering 1.7% of “… offenders [who] were incarcerated from crimes committed with handguns… reported… they obtained the guns…” at a gun show.
In addition the National Criminal Justice Reference Service reports:
According to the latest available data, those who use guns in violent crimes rarely purchase them directly from licensed dealers; most guns used in crime have been stolen or transferred between individuals after the original purchase.
Source: Washington Post – The stale claim that 40 percent of gun sales lack background checks
Source: NCJRS – Firearms and Violence. -
Myth: Anyone can Purchase Ammunition at a Gun Show
Fact: True. So long as they are not legally prohibited from purchasing ammo and/or receiving ammo. (Most people would know if they were prohibited.)
Long guns and long gun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older.
Source: ATF – Unlicensed Persons
Source: ATF – Licensees -
Myth: Most Gun Show Vendors are Not Licensed FFL Dealers
Fact: True(ish). In most states, private sellers are not required to preform background checks. The majority of dealers sell accessories including ammo, magazines, clips, t-shirts, knives, ice cream, etc. Typically, private sellers at gun shows tend to have a single table. However uncommon, there are some cases where a private seller might have 2+ tables. In addition, most gun shows will dedicate more tables to licensed FFL Dealers. Typically these dealers have anywhere from 5 to 20+ tables.
Let’s use New York City’s data from their 2009 “Gun Show Undercover” report. 1% to 8.9% of the tables at gun shows are private sellers. With that being said, if every private seller had two tables, that would mean that anywhere from 2% to 18% of all tables were private sellers.
Source: NYC – Gun Show Undercover
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Myth: Gun Show Prices are More Expensive
Fact: This really depends on the gun show and its dealers. Keep in mind that the larger the gun show, the more competition there will be between vendors. Competition between firearm dealers will help lower the prices on guns. This will also depend on the location and the gun you’re looking for.
Source: Green Sheet – Interchange: Will regulation or competition drive down pricing?
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Myth: Gun Shows are not Family Friendly
Fact: Usually this is not the case. Most promoters actually offer a discount for children (usually under the ages of 12) and some promoters will even offer discounts for spouses! It’s even possible to attend a show that has activities for children.
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Myth: Gun Shows are Dangerous
Fact: The largest factor in gun-related injuries at a gun show is due to accidents. However small this percentage is, it’s still an issue. There’s a reason why promoters require all guns to be zip-tied, no ammo in the firearm(s), and an empty magazine. Never been to a gun show before? Follow these gun show tips.
In addition, crime is typically below the local average at and during gun shows. Think about it. There are hundreds to thousands of armed citizens all within a building or two. Not to mention the Law Enforcement Officers, active military, retired military, concealed carry trainers and NRA trainers that all attend the show.
Source: NEBER Report – The Effect of Gun Shows on Gun-Related Deaths
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Myth: Gun Shows Cause an Increase in Gun Violence
The National Criminal Justice Reference Service reports:
Self-defense is the most commonly cited reason for acquiring a gun, but it is unclear how often these guns are used for self-protection against unprovoked attacks.
Fact: False. Gun sales are at an all time high and gun crimes are dropping.
This is actually relatively inconclusive on all accounts. Most reports on this issue gather from relatively small pools of data. Not to mention the majority of these reports do not decipher between gun-related defense and gun-related deaths (Take this report from NEBER.org as an example).
Source: NCJRS – Firearms and Violence.
Source: Forbes – Disarming Realities: As Gun Sales Soar, Gun Crimes Plummet -
Myth: Firearm Gifting is Legal
Fact: Gifting a firearm is not uncommon within pro-gun families. According to the ATF: “Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith [then] gives Jones the money for the firearm.” This is not gifting. If “Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present…” this is considered gifting. “However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited…”
Even with the Supreme Court Ruling on June 16th, 2014, gifting is still legal. Using someone else’s money to purchase a firearm and then giving them said firearm is illegal. This is even true if they could legally own a firearm.
A federal law banning the “straw” purchase of guns on behalf of others applies even to transactions where the person who ends up with the weapon could have legally acquired a firearm…
Source: LI – Supreme Court Affirms Conviction In Gun “Straw Purchase” Case
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Myth: Guns can be Shipped from a Gun Show
Fact: There are lots of stipulations to this. Basically, a firearm has to be mailed (UPS or FedEx) to a licensed FFL dealer.
Example: A gun show attendee purchases a firearm from a private seller and wants it shipped out-of-state. The firearm needs to be shipped to a licensed FFL near the purchaser’s desired location.
Source: ATF – Unlicensed Persons
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I would never buy a firearm from a private seller without both of us going to a local FFL and paying a reasonable fee to run a background check on both of us as well as the firearm serial number to make sure I wasn’t buying a firearm that has been stolen and/or used in a crime and that the seller is not a prohibited person. Paying $50 (or less) for the FFL dealer to do this will save one from the potential of paying thousands in legal fees down the road to a lawyer to keep my butt out of jail. Just sayin’…
Originally, it used to be,
that if I knew the person well enough, then I’d normally do it… but now in Virginia, I don’t have a choice.
I legally HAVE to go thru an FFL.
No matter how well that I knew the individual.
That law changed back in 2020
I’ve been buying and selling at gun shows for 30+ years never had an issue if some one asked me to go to ffl for a private sale ……………..
You can mail your gun back to the mfg for repair and they can mail it direct to you. It must be declared and can only be mailed and picked up from certain post offices.
my colleague was looking for ATF 5310.12 earlier today and learned about an online platform that hosts lots of form templates . If others are interested in ATF 5310.12 also , here’s a
http://goo.gl/6ovPyyI live in Minnesota and have a permit to purchase. And I was wondering would I still have to wait three days buying a gun at a gun show
I haven’t read every post, so forgive me if I’m repeating a question. If I have a rifle that I don’t want anymore, can I take it to a gunshow and sell it to anyone who wants to buy it? Should I make sure that person has a concealed carry permit to ensure he/she has had a background check?
Rigjt away I am going to do my breakfast, once
having myy breakfast coming over again too read further news.
Related to Myth No. 10, I believe it is legal to ship certain firearms listed as antiques, such as the Frank Wesson 1870’s era rifle I purchased. This was shipped directly to me from an auctioneer, and did not require an FFL dealer as intermediate.
Quick question where in the constitution does it declare the right of thre fed government to make it nearly impossible to acquire weapons with background checks. You do understand we the people have the right to bear arms and we the people all have a right to own and buy guns that is our right and Liberties this nation was founded on we the people acquiring arms and fighting a tyrannical government but yet they restrict how we can acquire weapons don’t you all understand that is unconstitutional when the government restricts the same right that made America doesn’t anyone else find this funny?
Sorry saw a spelling error its the not thre*
When the stable has been filling with manure for a while, it takes a while to shovel it out. Even our most widely cherished rights like the First Amendment (certainly more widely understood than the 2nd, although without the 2nd the first would be in peril) are subject to a few practical restrictions like “time, place and manner”.
Grab a fork and join us in shoveling.
We get the govt we DESERVE, because we lay up & watch “Survivor” instead of paying attention to what really matters.
Hello, I live in So. California and I want to buy my wife a handgun for her birthday. My question is am I allowed to that?
Question, I have lived in a state Va. For 40 years, hunted with shotguns, rifles, & 3 pistols.
I get a new job in another state, sell my house, pay a moving company to move all furniture & possisons to another state, including well packed guns & amo?
Any problems here?
I did that and the mover stole my guns, Take your guns with you and never trust a mover.
In the state of Wa. if you are NOT a dealer can you sell a rifle without a back ground check? Thanks Al
great info on gun shows ! never been to one. If I buy a handgun at a NY show can I go home with it that day or is there a waiting period? assuming I have a permit and pass a NICS check.
thanks !
I live in DC and I am getting my conceal carry in VA which would apply for 28 states. My question is what more would I have to do to conceal in DC?
I’m a retired military armourer and as a hobby I love tinkering on and trading in cap & ball revolvers. I’ve thought about occasionally renting a table at a gun show. I know I don’t need a FFL for cap & ball, but what about modern substitute powders & caps? If love to sell real black powder, but understand that’s a big no-no. That’s crap, but it’s the law that sucks. When I was a kid gun shows were full of 1 & 8 lb containers of black powder, I don’t recall any explosions.
Richard as long as the modern black powder firearm is not a conversion kit where you can put on an interchangeable barrel (several manufacturers make them) and able to fire a cartridge your good to go without an FFL. ATF does not regulate black powder firearms unless they have that a interchangeable barrel. Yes, you need an ATF explosives license to sell black powder.
If my son (of age) (fills out store paperwork) wants to gift a 22 rifle and a 22 pistol to my wife (his mother) for her birthday and Christmas (both Dec) and wants me to go in on the gift with him because of the expense. Can I help him pay for some of it with my credit card at the cash register when purchased? Keep in mind no one is exempt for gun ownership in our family. This is in AZ
The answer to Myth #9 Covers gifting
Here are the state laws for Arizona: https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/arizona/
What really irritates me…is when our elected officials openly lie about gun shows. Many people, (sheep) believe them, and that is so dishonest.
I think #4 Myth: Gun Show Vendors are Not Licensed FFL Dealers…..is not stated correctly…I believe you need to add the word: “most” in front of the word: “gun”. This answer then would make sense. Reason, we know all firearms sold on those tables must the licensed dealers.
I am heading to a gun show in Melbourne, FL today. Enjoy..thanks for the 10 Myths.
You’re right, Tim. I made the adjustment.
CORRECTION: The ATF does not REQUIRE an FFL to ship a firearm to an FFL in another state. It only requires a non-licensed person to send the gun overnight using a common carrier (UPS or FEDEX), you cannot use the USPS. The buyer’s FFL completes the transfer to the end buyer.
Thanks for the catch, Steve. It’s been updated.
This website is very informative, thank you. I would like to clarify: after reading information from this page, it seems that un-licensed gun dealers who do not require background checks are extremely rare. Do you know if that is the case in Montana? I had read that it is more easy and common to buy guns at the Montana shows from unlicensed dealers without background checks. I would be interested in attending, but would feel better knowing that the shows are as well regulated as you had mentioned.
Thanks,
WC
I wouldn’t say that private gun sellers are “rare.” I’d be more comfortable in saying that they are not as prevalent as the media makes it seem.
As for private sales in Montana, I’m not sure. Each state is different and all shows are different. I’d assume that the further you are away from major(ish) cities that it would become more common practice.
I think we need to differentiate between an “unlicensed dealer” and an “unlicensed gun seller”. If you are dealing in firearms to make money, such as regularly buying with intent to sell at a profit, you are required to have a license to do so. If you don’t have a license, you are breaking the law. If you’re a collector who occasionally upgrades something in their collection, then sells the previous gun, or a person who has a gun they no longer need and sells it, you are not a dealer and don’t need a license (at least at the Federal level – your local laws may vary).
I currently have Illinois, Florida, and Utah CCL. I was recently asked by a co-worker can a person carry more than one fire arm if licensed. I personally think one is enough to conceal without printing but have no idea of the correct answer.
Thanks Doug
I have WA AZ and OR carry permits. From my last reading of state law synopsis, while some states place limits on the number of cartriges in a magazine, none restrict either the number of magazines/speedloaders/cartriges or the number of guns you may choose to burden yourself with. I carry only one normally, but when I’m going to a gun show and will be unloading it, I bring another to lock in my car. The shows I regularly attend provide nice bullet traps for safe unloading, but have no good reloading arrangement.
Most place restrictions on sizes and styles of knives, but not number there either.
From the BATFE FAQs page in-state transfers between un-prohibeted individuals have no federal restriction. Out-of-state transfers of long arms require both individuals to adhere to their respective state’s legal standards, and must go through a FFL in the buyer’s state but any seller can mail off long arms. Out-of-state transfer of handguns requires FFL’s in both states and only FFL’s can mail handguns. Some states add their own extra restrictions. Not a lawyer etc. Always check for recent changes etc..
“There are hundreds to thousands of armed citizens all within a building or two. Not to mention the Law Enforcement Officers, active military, retired military, concealed carry trainers and NRA trainers that all attend the show.”
This sounds like a false logic since no one is allowed to have ammo in their gun at the show. Probably best to edit this out to avoid being viewed as misleading.
It takes just a few seconds to insert a clip.
Ah, but loaded magazines are also prohibited in most shows, so there will be a delay while you cut the tie disabling your gun that most shows require, then load your mag. But at least LEOs at the show are usually armed.
My question is, With being this day and age with the technology getting more involved in the firearms business. Is it really legal to sell a 3d printed AR reciever or even an entire gun at a gun show? Cause technically its not a gun, or serial numbered.. And what about the people that are making ‘INCOMPLETE RECIEVERs”? Could either one be techically be sold at a gun show? I do realize the laws havent completely caught up with technology yet. And eventually will pursue those issues.
If you are in the business of selling guns (this includes complete receivers), you are required to obtain an FFL. 80% receivers (per my understanding) are not considered firearms at all. They only become firearms once they are > 80% complete. If its not a firearm, then the FFL rule shouldn’t apply.
80% means it is 80% complete and needs to be machined out 20% to make it a complete fire able firearm. But it is home made with no serial number so there is no requirement to register it. Hence The Left like to call them Ghost Guns.
Do they sell suppressors at gun shows (in particular, Las Vegas)? Is that legal? Is it legal to buy a suppressor from a gun show (in this case Las Vegas)
Supressors are a Class 3 (NFA) firearm. Class 3 firearms (Machineguns, Supressors, Explosives, Certain Shotguns, Artillery, Short Barreled Rifles, Short Barreled Shotguns, Pen Guns, etc…) are subject to the NFA. You have to fill out the paperwork to register it, get the Chief of Police/Sheriff to sign off, and pay $200. It takes about 3-9 months for the ATF to approve a Form 4 (Purchase a Class 3 Firearm), so the short answer is no. The long answer is…yes you could buy it at a gun show, but you’d have to wait 3-9 months to actually take it home.
Like your website. Still have lots of questions. I am a private collector. I have sold firearms at gun shows. Mostly older .22 rifles which I love and collect. The way I understand it is I can sell rifles to ANYONE and handguns to Alaska residents only at gun shows. Either way I still can’t do background checks anyway. Is this okay?? Rifles to anyone, handguns to AK residents with an Alaska drivers license. I’d appreciate your thoughts on this. Capt. John
Hey John,
Alaska Gun Laws are a little bit different than here in Florida. I’d recommend 2 things for you to read. The first is the Gun Laws by State Book. I did a review on it not too long ago. I’d also recommend reading the NRA-ILA Alaska Gun Laws.
Here’s a synopsis from the NRA-ILA:
Good job with the Q&A but just one little thing, why on question #4 did you use that hated phrase “magazine clips” ?
Missed it in editing. Corrected.
Can an individual buy a gun from another individual? Assume the neither are dealers of any kind.
Ex: If both parties reside in the same state, and that both parties have clean backgrounds.
If someone, an individual, has a Ruger revolver and wants to sell that revolver to someone else, another individual, can that be done and are they subject to any kind of registration, etc.
Hey Wintson,
Assuming that the seller did not buy the firearm with someone else’s money and that they did not have the intent to sell it to the buyer. Then yes, a private seller can sell to an individual without any kind of registration. The answer is going to vary from state to state. Some states require registration. Also keep in mind that I’m not a lawyer and this isn’t legal advice.
Planning on driving down from NYC to attend the Chantilly, VA show next weekend. As I am a present LE member, can I purchase a pistol and transport it home in my own vehicle? Or would I have to have it sent home and picked up from my local dealer? Thanks
New to gun shows and this web site. There is a lot of great information provided here. I am retired military as well as retired military contractor. I have spent years reading and writing acronyms for the US Government. This web site is filled with acronyms with NO explanation provided. It would be great if the words were written out or an acronym database provided. EVERY state has different laws and requirements and they all call it something different. Please help everyone reading your comment by providing the words and not just the acronyms. What do these acronyms mean: FFL, CCW, BAFTE, GCA, CCL.
Hey Sgt Lip,
That is a very good point. I started a page for this and will continue to fill it:
http://gunshowtrader.com/support/acronyms/
Can we suggest additions to the Definitions dictionary?
FMJ; Hollow Point; center fire; rim fire; .22 Short; .22 Long;
egads, there are thousands of terms for the technology of firearms. But, ignorant folks keep asking me, and there is only so much time in the day!
Hi –
I saw there is a gun show in Oct11-12 in Reno, Nevada. I am from Arizona, if i find a good rifle such as AR15 and wanted to purchase do i need any permit or have prior background check? thanks,
Please check your research on Fact #9. The case had nothing to do with “Gifting”, but rather making false statements during an FFL transfer. The supreme court ruling applied on July 16th specifically denoted that, in that particular case, when Abramski purchased the firearm for his uncle using his law enforcement discount but using his uncle’s money instead of his own, it was no longer a gift as Abramski’s uncle was the actual “buyer” who provided the funds. They therefore ruled that Abramski had lied on question 11.a on the form 4473 “are you the actual buyer of the firearm?”, making it a felony – which is what was upheld. This was proven through his own evidence, as his uncle wrote him a check for $400 with “Glock 19” written in the memo field.
Actual “Gifting” is still legal. Using someone else’s money (if it’s trackable, of course) to purchase and then give them the firearm is illegal, even if they could legally own the firearm.
Frankly, this court ruling changes virtually nothing regarding current law, as straw purchasing has always been illegal. The only change would be the addition of an “even if they could legally own the firearm” scenario to illegal straw purchase criteria – subject specifically in those cases in which the recipient of the firearm provided the funds for the purchase. Straw purchasing or gifting for an ineligible person has been and is always illegal, regardless of who provides the funds. The media has spun this into something it is not to advance an agenda (again), and is using it to frighten people through misinformation and a lack of legal comprehension.
From the actual charges:
“Abramski was indicted on two charges, the violation of Federal statutes §922(a)(6)–making a false statement re: a fact material to the lawfulness of the sale–and §924(a)(1)(A)–making a false statement re: any information required to be kept on file by an FFL.”
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/06/supreme-court-affirms-narrow-reading-of-gun-straw-purchase-rules/
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/16/justice/supreme-court-straw-purchase/
Actual Supreme Court Ruling:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-1493_k5g1.pdf
Hey Tim,
Thank you for helping clear this up. I’ve updated the article.
i am a newbie to gun shows and this site has helped me a lot to understand what to expect.
thank you for taking the time to publish this information…
I have to disagree with part of number 10. Yes, it is a straw purchase if purchased for someone else and always has been even if that person could have legally purchased the gun. However it is not illegal to give a gun to someone who can legally purchase and possess the gun. That is in accordance with all I have read on the ATFE site. If I am incorrect, please site the exact # for me to reference.
Thanks and have a wonderful day.
The BAFTE hasn’t updated their site yet. This ruling happened recently on July 16th, 2014. According to the Wall Street Journal:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/supreme-court-upholds-federal-ban-on-straw-purchases-of-guns-1402932979
The last time I read the entire Federal Firearms Act, Gun Control Act, Brady Bill and all the ATF regulations the only thing I saw Not considered an illegal purchase (i.e. straw) was to give as a gift to an immediate family member i.e. spouse, immediate child, father, mother. ANY other purchase whether or not the individual was able to purchase on their own was illegal due to varying state laws. For example Texas limits gun ownership to 8 weapons per family member. If a married couple with no children and owning 16 guns already were to have a parent purchase another gun for them or that parent bought and gifted it unknowing they already owned the maximum, this would be illegal even though the couple is Not Prohibited from buying a gun per say. This included purchases for strangers, friends, and family members Not immediate as being illegal. This did not include giving a gun to a person otherwise allowed that was Not originally bought for that purpose. In simple, you buy a gun, your will says your uncle gets all your belongings, a week later you die in a car crash. This transfer is legal. Another example, you buy a gun, a few days later your girlfriend is assaulted and you decide to give her your gun for protection. This transfer is legal. BUT I’m NOT a lawyer so you should check with one or the local police to be sure of any local laws affecting any transfer.
Greg – I think you need to check your facts on the limit on guns owned per family member in Texas. As far as I know, there is no limit on the number of guns that can be owned by any individual who is legally permitted to own guns in Texas. If this is not the case, please cite the specific law, so that we can verify this.
Can we send a dealer to sell body armor to gun shows?
I believe it really depends on the state and the type of body armor. Best thing to do is to contact the promoter for the show they might have more experience with that.
I haven’t been to a gun show in years. However, the last gun show I went to (2008/2009) I had some trouble getting a gun (shotgun) due to the background check system. This was the first time I had bought (or tried to buy) a shotgun and had to go through the background check application system.
I filled out the paperwork and the seller submitted it. I came from out of town and the seller lived on the opposite end of the state (Kansas). The seller did not get a response (before the end of the weekend gun show) and informed me I would have to wait, and upon approval I could buy the gun from him if I was willing to make another trip across the state. A week later he called me and informed me that I was approved. But, for a $250 gun at the show, it was not worth the additional $150 in gas it would take to travel across the state and buy the gun.
Short of getting a Conceal and Carry License, is there anything else I can do to assure that I can walk into a gun show, fill out the appropriate paperwork, and get a timely response for approval and walk out with a gun? Can I file any forms prior to the gun show to assure a quicker response?
I am now looking to buy another gun and want to avoid some issues I had in the past.
From my personal experience and I’m not a lawyer or a FFL. But once you’ve applied the Feds have you in their database and will process your application faster. Usually most people the first time the wait is for the Feds to create that database on you and send out feelers for any negative information. Also remember that like any agency they only have so many on staff and less working the weekends, so if there are several major gun shows going on around the country it’s entirely possible the Feds may get overwhelmed and not be able to process the request before Monday or Tuesday. I would check several websites of national gun show listings to see how many are going on before wasting time on a FFL that’s not in your local area.
One thing you can do to speed the process is to fill out the application completely. Some of the information asked for on the form is NOT required – for example, your Social Security Number is one space on the form, but it NOT required and many people mistrust putting their SSN on any paperwork that says it is optional. The problem is that the system actually checks your record BY NAME. Even if your is John Jacob Jingleheimer, there are probably several people living and dead with that same name. Then if ANYONE matching your name comes up with any disqualification or potential disqualification some poor clerk has to decide which one is you and if the record is a disqualification or not.
Another thing you can do to speed the process, is to NOT buy a gun at a gun show, especially not a big gun show. See all those people waiting for their background check? Guess what? Gun shows are on the weekend and they are probably all waiting for just one or two clerks to manually verify the data for everyone buying a gun that same time. So even if your check is clear and easy, you might be waiting for the clerk to get down to yours under the pile of other records he has to clear.
We have a gun show coming up in California in about a week. If either me or my spouse wanted to purchase a rifle nor shotgun and have no permit would we be able to walk out the doors with it. Or how does that work
California is like another country, especially when it comes to guns. Any guns. Best to contact the gun show producer or the local cop on the street in the city of the gun show. I wouldn’t call the local cops because in my experience you get an answer from an untrained in the law dispatcher that thinks their a cop and almost always will give you the wrong information.
Hi, I live in Florida. What about private sellers at gun shows. If you buy or trade from private sellers does a 3 day waiting period still in effect?
Hey Blitzer,
The Short Answer: No, you don’t have to wait. Don’t take my word for it. I’m not a lawyer and this isn’t legal advice. Here’s a quote from the ATF:
For your own sake, it is best practice to keep a record of this transaction in case the ATF needs to locate this firearm. Also note, that it is now completely illegal to buy a firearm and immediately sell it, gift it or give it to someone else. Read this article for more information on Straw Purchasing.
ATF: Transfers of Firearms by Private Seller
Thanx. The prices are getting so high. Sometimes it feels good to get a break even if it’s just saving paying sales tax.
Jason
I have read a lot of conflicting information regarding AR builds using 80% lower receivers ( Unmarked/ not serialized). And the associated legalities of NOT needing to register the weapon and legal possession of the finished firearm. The only illegal thing that I may have done in my life is breaking the speed limit. I do not want to partake in anything illegal. Can you tell me if it is legal to complete a 80% lower receiver and build the AR (completely) and you don’t need to register it???? Please advise. Thank you.
Hey Michael,
Sorry for the late reply. This will most likely depend on which state you are in. In Florida you don’t have to register a firearm. Keep in mind that I’m not a lawyer and this isn’t legal advice.
Here’s what the ATF says:
ATF: Firearms Technology
I am a Life NRA Member and hold all of the Police Instructor Certifications offered by the NRA. My background is 32 years LE to include State and Federal service. While I find the questions and answers very informative I would have to differ on the “loophole” so to speak that Gun Shows currently provide. Example, at the last two Gun Shows I attended there were at least 2-3 guys attempting to sell handguns to those of us waiting in line prior to the show doors opening.Just for the hell of it I asked the seller of the Ruger model GP1oo if he needed to see my ID prior to buying the firearm from him. He stated no, just cash. Now forgive me for thinking that this is the exact reason that the anti-gun crowd uses to attack gun shows. I would support a law/rule forbidding any sales “outside” the actual show and requiring all sales inside to go thru the required background check. The show promoter would have to be responsible for security outside the show but still on the grounds to prevent this type of sale. This may not be a popular idea but it does make sense.
True and I would agree, except that their are many other avenues the seller can use. The question you should have asked the seller is will he give a bill of sale and provide his ID and signature. If he answered no I would have alerted the nearest LE Officer of a most likely stolen weapon. I’m very surprised you didn’t do this given your background because it would have provided plenty of probably cause for LE to investigate.
I had misunderstood this. I thought two private individuals, both outside of a gun show could sell any weapon to each other. This would also mean that I could not sell a weapon to my next door neighbor without further paperwork?
When did this end?
Hey James, currently there is no such law that I’m aware of. However, I’m not a lawyer and your state/city might be different.
The selling of private firearms between individuals varies by state (and sometimes county, city, etc), but according to Federal law you CAN sell a firearm to a resident of the same state who is legal to purchase/own the firearm without any paperwork or wait time. Of course, the ATF recommends you fill out a bill of sale, but it’s not REQUIRED. Nor is viewing ID, CCW/CFL, or anything else of the sort.
Basically, there’s no federal law that requires private firearms sales/transfers be conducted only in a gun show setting, or that requires someone to view your ID or provide/require any kind of paperwork. It’s mostly left up to individual preferences. If someone requires more or refuses to provide what you want, don’t deal with them.
I’m not a lawyer, this isn’t legal advice, etc, etc.
True, Marty. Some people do choose to commit felonies – or to risk committing a felony.
Those who know they are acting improperly are far more likely to choose to do so OUTSIDE the actual gun show rather than inside where they are more likely to be observed and reported to local law enforcement.
In the case you describe, technically what the would-be seller said was probably legally correct but rather risky.
In most states a private seller is NOT specifically required to check the ID of the buyer (feel free to look up the exact wording of the statute in your state); but both the buyer and the seller ARE legally responsible for complying with the state law concerning the transfer (which probably requires it to be between residents of the state who are legally eligible to possess the firearm). How the seller and buyer each accomplish that is generally up to them.
There really is no “Gun Show Loophole” simply because exactly the same laws apply at the gun show as apply everywhere else. The anti-gun crowd likes to pretend that private sales exist only at gun shows, but the vast majority of private sales have nothing to do with gun shows.
That would-be seller who tried to sell you the gun outside the gun show, would almost certainly be just as willing to make that same sale anywhere else on any other day. He just figured he had more potential customers standing in line outside the gun show. In most states, if he had sold you the gun without checking your ID, he would not have done anything wrong (IF you were both in-state residents and eligible to possess that gun). The Gun Show itself has nothing to do with the facts of your example — he could have made you that same offer at the bus stop on your way to work in the morning – and exactly the same rules would apply.
Some of those potential customers undoubtedly did not know what rules DO apply — some of the questions and answers posted here demonstrate that many people who own firearms do NOT know the laws about buying/selling/transferring/possessing those firearms in their own state or other states.
Per BATF regulations, the seller has to determine that you are of legal age to purchase the firearm, and a resident of that state (whatever state you and he/she happen to be in). So yes, legally he should have asked to see your ID, confirm it was you and check your age. Unless he knows that you are prohibited from buying the weapon, he can transfer it. (Some state laws may involve further hoops to jump through though) Now, I would recommend that the two parties exchange information including a bill of sale, but the BATF does not require it. As far as people approaching you while you are waiting in line, tell the promoter of the show, they will have them removed.
The BATFE states that an individual under 21 cannot purchase a handgun or handgun ammunition. Is this really realistic considering the interchangeability of many cartridges, especially in the AR15? If someone owns a 9mm AR15 carbine, are they then not allowed to purchase ammunition for their long gun?
That is correct. So if your under 21 or buying for an immediate family member [not considered a straw purchase when the spouse can legally own (though the ATF Strongly prefers that after receipt the spouse goes to a FFL to have a background check (also known as Federal database of gun owners, you don’t really think do you that the Feds OK your purchase without keeping a record of it)] who is under 21 don’t buy in a caliber that that person cannot buy their own ammunition in.
I should add this spouse clause may be changed in the very near future in light of the execution of the two Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Officers buy weapons purchased by the spouse of the shooter who was prohibited from purchasing.even though the current regulation was already being broken by purchasing for someone known to not be able to purchase. The Only way I can think for the Feds to enforce this is to include marriage licenses in their data base but then that doesn’t stop the people “dating” but not married..
Not really…I had a 9mm carbine when I was 19. When buying ammunition at gun shops, I would bring the gun in with me to show I was buying for a rifle and not a handgun.
You may want to update the section about buying guns as gifts given the latest supreme court ruling covering that issue.
Thank you, we cover this in next week’s podcast. I updated the article as well.
Can anybody purchase a gun from a gun show?
Say I go to a gunshow to purchase a firearm and I don’t have a permit, could I still purchase it even if they run a background and I’m good to go?
Yes, depending on what you mean by “good to go.” If you’re expecting to take the firearm home immediately, some states require a waiting period. As an example, in Florida if you purchase a handgun without a permit it’s a 3-day waiting period. If you have a permit or it’s a long-gun there’s no wait. Keep in mind I’m not a lawyer and this isn’t legal advice.
And in some states like Nevada it depends on the County Ordinance. In Las Vegas (Clark County) they have mandatory pistol/revolver registration and you receive a “blue” (that’s actually the color) card. If you have a blue card the 3 day Brady Bill wait period does not apply since you already own a gun.
As of this month, (June 2015) the Infamous Clark County Blue Cards are no longer required. There seems to be some confusion among sellers, but Metro (our combined LVPD and Sheriff’s Dept) no longer issues or requires them. This will make my wallet thinner!
I live in Minnesota and have a permit to purchase. So if I go to a gun show in mn will I still have to wait three days
If I have an out of state license (CT) but am active duty military and current Virginia resident, may I purchase weapons?
Hey Jodie,
Although you are military, I still believe you will be considered out-of-state. Marion’s question will answer that as well. Keep in mind that this isn’t intended to be legal advice and I’m not a lawyer.
If you have orders assigning you to another state, you can purchase firearms in that state. You are considered a state resident wherever you are assigned.
Good to know, Lee.
In addition to what Lee stated; an active duty military member can (as stated above) purchase a firearm in their state of assignment (on orders) as well as their state of residence. This would still most likely require an FFL to FFL transfer; however, there could be a way around this though if the member has a concealed carry permit and will be “carrying” the firearm only through states with reciprocity agreements. I am also not a lawyer and am not intending to give legal advice.
Active military can purchase firearms from an FFL with their military ID and a copy of their PERMANENT Change of Duty orders (the FFL is required to keep a copy of the orders, so bring extra copies if wanting to make multiple purchases.) A permanent change of duty makes the military individual a resident of the state upon reporting for duty…the address of record doesn’t matter. Realize though, if you purchase an AR-15 while stationed in Texas, you cannot legally take the rifle with you if you are next stationed in California or any other state that rifle is not legal to possess.
According to ATF regulations Active duty military can purchase a gun in their state of assignment with an out of state ID such as Driver’s License and any proof of their current post of duty. In addition they can purchase in their home state Only if it is adjoining the state of assignment otherwise they are considered for purposes of the GCA to be a resident of Only the state of military assignment.. As with any commuter or traveler they are allowed to transport any firearm they legally process across state lines as long as the firearm is either unloaded and stowed in a separate locked compartment of the vehicle or locked container, OR the jurisdictions being crossed all allow for the transport of legal weapons either loaded or unloaded in the passenger compartment of the vehicle. [ this is an area to be investigated by the individual as almost all jurisdictions allow for personal weapons loaded carry in the passenger compartment; However, rules very greatly. For example in Texas the gun MUST be hidden from view at all times, while in Nevada the gun Must NOT be hidden from view Ever ! Even when the vehicle is left unattended, which quite frankly is the stupidest rule I’ve ever heard of, but even North Dakota has a version of this gun always visible for thieves to steal rule.]
i am looking to purchase a walther ppk 380. however buying it new is banned from california. can i purchase one from a gun show out of state and bring it in to ca.?
Hey Brian,
According to Walther, the guns are restricted for distribution in the state of California.
Walther Arms California Distribution RESTRICTIONS
Brian, you MIGHT manage to do so — with some lying and some false ID — but that would be a felony.
Back in 2006 i had received a class b misdemenor for a (THEFT) charge.. It was defferred, and since then i have gotten my record sealed. My question is can i purchase a hand gun in my name for my homes potection..
Hey Anthony,
This question came up a lot when I worked for an FFL. Unfortunately the ATF doesn’t clearly define which violations directly effect handgun purchases. In fact, I’m sure it varies from state to state. Here’s what the ATF says:
FAQ – Unlicensed Persons
I’m not an attorney, nor is this a legal advice. From personal experience, if none of these rules apply, running the NICS background check may be the only way to find out. This is the background check ran when you purchase a firearm. Sometimes it goes through fine, depending on the person and/or the violation. Other times it may take a few days to process and they will either come back with a “yes” or a “no”.
Keep in mind that you will most likely have to pay the application fee (usually $5.00). Also be sure to clarify with the dealer that you will get all your money back if the application doesn’t go through. Some dealers may charge a fee for denied application.
The most important thing to do When filling out the application is to be honest. I hope this helps.
This is an excellent answer and also shows the falicy that background checks are as the check is only as good as ALL arms of the government do their part in supplying information to the FBI (who I understand actually conducts the check for the ATF). Recently (May to August 2014) two incidents have made national news where persons the subject of restraining orders “legally” purchased guns from FFL’s because they passed the background check.
As a resident of California, I tried to buy a shotgun in Oregon and the vender at a gun show couldn’t sell it to me. I was wondering why?
Hey Nick,
I checked the NRA-ILA for both states and didn’t see anything regarding a CA resident purchasing out-of-state.
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/oregon.aspx
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/california.aspx
I have heard of this before and it pertains to Myth #10. It’s possible that the vendor simply didn’t want to deal with the hassle of having to send it to an FFL in your state. Was the vendor a Licensed Dealer or a Private Seller?
To Nick and J.S.T. Andrews,
The answer to Nick’s question in because that Oregon dealer is probably not register to ship firearms into the State of California.
The FFL has to register with the State of California to be on the CFLC program and they have to get a number for every firearm that they ship into the State of California.
As a resident of AL, I can go to MS and TN, walk in to a GS, buy a rifle or shotgun, show proper ID, fill out FORM4473, get approved, and walkout with my purchase.
As a CHL holder, I can’t carry in a gun show. Do you know how hypocritical that is?
It is. However, there is actually sound reasoning behind it. I’m not speaking for gun show promoters, but it’s usually due to one of two reasons: 1) Safety (unfortunately people tend to get careless and it affects us all) 2) To appease the venue.
I believe it’s also the law in some places, even gun happy Texas. When I went to gun shows there in Harris County which includes Houston and suburbs, even ON-Duty let alone off duty uniformed police could Not have a loaded weapon/ammunition. And they had to have their service piece zip-tied. Only the officers assigned to the show were allowed to have loaded firearms. It’s been 2 years so this could have changed.
Just as a side note to this particular sunject. In Georgia, Police officers are the ONLY one allowed to carry a loaded side arm.
In Illinois, DuPage County, am I, a resident of the said, allowed to bring a zip locked pistol to a gun show? I am looking for extra magazines & would like to make sure they are perfect for my pistols.
As an FFL, I agree with you, but I can tell you the reason. Unfortunately, a lot of CHL holders can not keep their concealed handgun concealed when they get excited at a gun show. I have lost count of the number of loaded weapons that I have been handed over a gunshow table, either for trade in or for gunsmithing (It is over 30 in 10 years). I even had one uniformed officer hand me his loaded duty weapon out of his holster. Our rule at the shop is that while we encourage concealed carry, if a loaded weapon becomes unconcealed, it and you are no longer welcome in the shop (unless of course your are legally defending yourself or me). While I agree with your sentiment about the hypocracy, from experience, I can tell you it is a lot safer this way.
Jim, I don’t have anything but a bee-bee rifle and a baseball bat for protection at home. So you see that I’m new to the purchasing of a real gun. I’m going to a gun show in Shady Grove, PA tomorrow. PA is my home state. Anything you would advise/recommend? It sounds like since I don’t have any gun license, I will have to have it shipped/transferred to an FFL after I fill out paperwork at the gun show. Any info is greatly appreciated.
Since you live in Pennsylvania, and are attending a gun show in Pennsylvania, the gun shows and some vendors will have an FFL. You will be able to fill out the paperwork at the gun show, and if the background check is clear, you will be able to take the firearm home with you. Check with the promoter of the gun show and/or the seller to see who is handling the paperwork. You probably have already found this out, since you were going to the show in March. If you did not, there is a gun show in Carlisle April 30/May 1 at the Carlisle Expo Center.
He can only take the gun home with him if he has ccw permit otherwise it’s a three day waiting period. Thats federal law.
A comment by Randy is so very wrong, because, he doesn’t state he is a lawyer, yet he gives legal advice, without quoting the source.
Randy is totally incorrect about the subject, because, long guns have no waiting period under Federal law.
Some states might have time restrictions, but, I am not a lawyer so that should be discovered by the person reading this, either by referring to State and Federal current laws, or by asking his or her attorney.
Thanks Jason. This was very helpful. I know that there is a lot of confusion on this subject. I’ve heard so many different explanations.
Good work!
Thank you, Marion!
Thanks for the great job you are doing with Gun Shows.
About prices at Gun Shows:
“The more competition will yield an increase in price drops throughout the gun show.” This may be correct but I had to read it 3 times to understand what was being said.
I believe much of the confusion about guns in general are the laws that apply. They have too many double negatives, positives, etc. I think we can help ourselves by making simple statements that everyone can understand without re-reading or 2nd thoughts.
Thank you, Bruce. I’ve updated that section.
Can you tell me what is the law that governs sales of firearms between individuals of different states. I’ve heard so many different stories, ie. you can sell or buy long guns but not pistols, etc. No guns may be purchased, etc.
Please clear this up if you can. I would appreciate it very much.
Regards,
Marion
Hey Marion,
According to the ATF:
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)] ATF FAQ
This follows Myth #10. Basically it can be purchased. However, it can not be taken home immediately. Instead it has to be shipped to a local FFL dealer (that is in the state of the purchaser) and it can be picked up there. I’m not an attorney, nor is this a legal advice.
So just to be clear, If I live in Oregon and I buy a firearm from a private party at a gun show in Idaho, I can’t drive it straight home? The reasoning being that it would have to be shipped to an FFL dealer in my home state of Oregon. Don’t you have to buy from one FFL dealer to ship to another FFL dealer since a private party can’t ship firearms?
Thanks
Unless something has changed in the last 10 years (certainly possible), you can buy a long gun (rifle or shotgun) in any state as long as it is legal in that state and your home state. I used to live close to the state line and would go to gun shows in the next state over. I could buy rifles or shotguns, but not handguns. Handguns could only be purchased in the buyer’s home state.
THAT varies from state to state. Some states allow their residents to purchase long guns (rifles & shotguns) only in adjacent states; several states do not allow any out of state purchases by their residents. Under federal law, ALL out of state purchases have to have the transfer processed by a FFL licensed dealer. States can and do set their own rules that are more strict than the federal rules. (This is why, for example, some guns are legal in one state and illegal in another state). The licensed dealers will be familiar with the laws of the states where they are operating and will ensure that those laws are followed (making a few bucks on a sale is not worth going to jail or even just losing their license).
The original post was concerning a sale from an unlicensed individual to an out of state resident; this sale can only happen when transferred through an FFL from the state where the sale happens to an FFL in the state of the buyer’s residence. Many states do allow the sale of long guns by an FFL to an out of state resident IF the two state’s laws do not conflict.
Good advice. Please note that the correct reverse of “can” is “cannot” without any spaces.
Hello, can a private person ( me ) sell ammo to a seller, and/ or dealer at a gun show, the May 31st South Point show in Las Vegas, NV ? Thank you. Carl Martigani. Las Vegas, NV.
It depends on the Gun Show. Contact the promoter directly:
http://gunshowtrader.com/gun-shows/las-vegas-gun-show-rocky-mountain/#promoter